When Rabindranath Tagore (Robindronath Thakur) talks with me - 1

Hello everyone, today we have the noble prize winner, author, and composer of the national anthems of India and Bangladesh, Rabindranath Tagore. Welcome, Gurudev...

Rabindranath: Hello Vivek. I always enjoy the discussion with young people. 

Vivek: Gurudev, let me start this conversation with caste and religion in India. What do you think about the Indian caste system?

Rabindranath: The idea of caste actually helps to maintain the co-existence of the diversities in Hindu Society. India's caste system is the outcome of a spirit of toleration, For India has all along been trying experiments in evolving a social unity within which all the different peoples could be held together, while fully enjoying the freedom of maintaining their own differences. But over a period of time, segregation happened and we built a social wall between the different castes. These social walls damage the fundamental spirit of freedom and create problems like untouchability. Such practices are actually against the spirit of Hinduism.

Vivek: As you mentioned here that untouchability is actually against the spirit of Hinduism. Then why it exists. Adding to that, this existing social order is also reflecting on occupations. National Sample Survey Office (NSSO) or recent PLFS survey do show that SC/ST caste witness the high joblessness. These castes are also engaged in economic activities that are lower in the hierarchy. There exists social immobility parallelly there also exists a similar kind of immobility in economic activity. Why such immobilities exist and what are the implications of such a system. 

Rabindranath: The law of love and mutual respect has been ignored for the sake of retaining an artificial order. This only serves to promote a sense of degeneracy and of defeat. The people of India in this way have built their own cage. But by trying to secure their freedom from one another, they only succeeded in keeping themselves eternally captive. These kinds of arrangements if defined by birth then they are also not productive. If occupations are allocated by birth then they are unproductive. Such hereditary occupations were destructive of an innovative quality of mind. Because of this destruction,  man is reduced to a machine, and can but keep on repeating himself. Therefore if hereditary occupations still exist in India, then it's very unproductive. Freedom and mobility should be encouraged. 

Vivek: But today instead of freedom and peaceful coexistence among different culture, we are witnessing incidences like Anti-Love Jihad acts which restrict inter-faith marriages. There are also incidences where inter-caste marriages are also not allowed. The social walls which you mentioned are getting stronger and stronger. What do you think about these incidences?

Rabindranath: The spirit of Hinduism which, all through its history, has been accommodating differences of creeds and customs, allowing the mixture of castes and making new social adjustments from the time of the Mahabharat until now. And therefore I supported legislation in favor of Hindu inter-caste marriages. Law of love and freedom are two important things on which Hinduism is founded and nourished. The efforts against such marriages are actually against the spirit of Hinduism. More interaction, more communication among different faith is important for coexistence. That should be encouraged.

Vivek: So according to you, amalgamation of different caste, culture is important for peaceful coexistence. Moving ahead, Gurudev, I want you to explain to us the notion of nationalism. How do you look at nationalism? Because nationalism is now a hot topic. What are your views on nationalism?

Rabindranath: Glad you ask this question. See, the nationalism which you are talking i.e. western nationalism is based on conflict and conquest. It is just an organization of power and these organizations are fighting among themselves and creating victims. This structure is exclusive and power-hungry and therefore such nations are reluctant to accept the people which are exploited by these nations. Therefore nationalism is anti-human. In our principle, like being Indian. we never follow such nationalism. In past, we have tried to make an adjustment of races, to acknowledge the real differences between them where these exist, and yet seek for some basis of unity. And no nation will provide a place for unity in diversity.

Vivek: So you are saying that our fundamental foundation, principles, and values are actually anti-national?

Rabindranath: If you are talking about nationalism which is exclusive, exploitive, and harms the differences then yes, the foundation on which we survive over the period of time is actually anti-national. Our basic foundation has come through our saints, like Nanak, Kabir, Chaitanya, and others, preaching one God to all races of India. The power-hungry nation is exactly the opposite. 

Vivek: Okay, but then why we are witnessing the incidences where people are getting harassed, killed under the name of nationalism?

Rabindranath: If that is happening then it means we are becoming a barbaric nation. See, nations manufacture war-making and moneymaking puppets. And over a period of time, it becomes an organization of politicians, soldiers, manufacturers, and bureaucrats. Such nations are aggressive, exploitive which restricts freedom and threatens the differences. That's why India if becomes such a 'nation' then we will witness such incidences.

Vivek: Okay but not nation then what? Like what you visualize as ideal India?

Rabindranath: See, the concept of the nation may be suitable for the population where there are no differences but for India, where there are differences among social groups, this concept of nation is just anti-Indian. We in past never witnessed a concept called nation. Rather we were the victim of nationalism as we were under British rule. What we want is something that common to all races, which will prove their real unity. No nation looking for a mere political or commercial basis of unity can provide such "common-place". What we want is social co-operation. We believe in the peaceful coexistence of different caste, race, culture. What we want is Swadeshi Samaj where social relations are based on love and cooperation. 

Vivek: Social cooperation instead of nationalism.. Interesting. I hope you are enjoying this session. Can we take a break? We have Garlic vadas, Sandesh, Horlicks as well as Coffee. I hope you will like that as well. 

Rabindranath: Okay, let's have a break. 

References: 

Basu, T. (2012). Caste Matters: Rabindranath Tagore's Engagement with India's Ancient Social Hierarchies. South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies, 35(1), 162-171. 

Collins, M. (2008). Rabindranath Tagore and nationalism: An interpretation. Heidelberg Papers in South Asian and Comparative Politics, (42). 

Collins, M. (2013). Empire, nationalism and the postcolonial world: Rabindranath Tagore's writings on history, politics and society. Routledge. 

Nandy, A. (1994). The illegitimacy of nationalism: Rabindranath Tagore and the politics of self. Oxford University Press. 

Tagore, R. (2017). Nationalism. Penguin UK. 

https://www.thestatesman.com/opinion/tagore-and-caste-1502813852.html 

https://www.thestatesman.com/opinion/tagore-on-religioni-2-1502668623.html